Jordan Gerheim of Outside Chief Legal went to the University of Georgia and law school at University of Alabama. He gained litigation experience here in Mobile before launching his own firm about five years ago.

He discusses early jobs like shoe shining and running a yard-work business that taught him lessons about hard work, saving, and management styles.

Gerheim explains how his practice evolved from reactive “break-fix” litigation to a proactive, business-focused general counsel with a team covering litigation, M&A, real estate, estate planning, and succession planning. He highlights “partner plans” that help businesses budget for ongoing legal support and emphasizes that if you have to take risks, make sure they are calculated risks.

Transcript:

Jordan: All right. I'm Jordan Gerheim with Outside Chief Legal.

Marcus: Yay.

Jordan: Yeah.

Marcus: All right. So full disclosure, this is the second time that we've done this because I, I have to apologize to Jordan.

I messed up the audio so bad on the last one that I was like, "Please, is there any way that we can get together and re-record this?" And so thank you for coming out again and- No,

Jordan: man, absolut- I mean, I, I appreciate the opportunity. It's, it's awesome to- Yeah ... uh, you know, get to catch up with you, but also tell us, tell people about Outside Chief Legal, so.

Yeah,

Marcus: absolutely. So, well, um, before we get too far into it, we like to know a little bit about the person that we're talking to. So why don't you tell us a little bit about Jordan. You know, where you're from, did you grow up here, school, you know, that kind of thing.

Jordan: Okay. Yeah. Um, I was born in Dallas, Texas, lived there for a few years.

We moved to, um, the suburbs of Atlanta, at least they were at the time, and I pretty much grew up in Alpharetta, Georgia. Um, graduated high school there, went to the University of Georgia, uh, and then, um, clerked for a year figuring out what I wanted to do and, and studying for the LSAT. Then I went to law school in Tuscaloosa.

Marcus: Okay.

Jordan: And, um, when I graduated, I've been down here ever since.

Marcus: Nice.

Jordan: So yeah.

Marcus: And, and family in the area too?

Jordan: Uh, my parents have now moved from Nor' Georgia down here. Yep. Um, and I'm married, uh, and we have a one three and a half year old son.

Marcus: Nice.

Jordan: Yeah.

Marcus: Very nice. And for those of you that are listening to this that don't know, your wife is...

Jordan: Uh, she's a judge.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also a lawyer and a

Marcus: judge.

Jordan: Yeah.

Marcus: Yes. No, it, it's just funny 'cause I mean, you know, most guys feel like they're being, you know, like the gavel is being slammed on them- Yeah. ... daily anyway, but your wife actually has a reason to slam that gavel, so.

Jordan: Yeah. There's a funny joke.

Like, you know, all wives are judgemental anyway, right? Sure. So yeah, so no, but I'm, I'm really proud of her and she r- loves her job- Yeah ... which, you know- She's doing a great thing ... happy wife, happy life, so yeah.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: She really loves it.

Marcus: No, for sure. That's awesome. Now, go back to, uh, you know, like high school and college.

Okay. Would you have considered yourself, you know, a good student?

Jordan: Uh, yeah, I was, I was an excellent student, yeah. Now did I, um, do the best that I could have? Probably not. I always kind of figured out, okay, here's what I need to do to make an A, and I made an A. And then I probably should have fig- could have figured out that I was gonna be an attorney or some type of, you know, business, uh, early on, 'cause I remember there were a few grades that I had to negotiate up a little bit.

Yeah. You know? So yeah. Yeah. Uh- I'll do

Marcus: some extra credit. Yeah. I'll sweep the floors in the classroom.

Jordan: Yeah. I mean- Whatever I need. Uh, yeah, especially for some of the- subjective, you know, classes, English and stuff like this. You know, ah. Yeah. You know, so yeah, we had a little bit of success in that back in the day.

But yeah, I was, um, I think I, not until I got to law school did I really really understand about studying. Um, you know, I, I think I was just lucky in that I was gifted. I had a good memory.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: And, um, you know, the school was kinda structured, uh, in a way that, that met my skillset and talents- Yeah ... you know, which I know it does not for a lot of people, but.

Marcus: No, I mean, I'm, I'm horrible at, you know, remembering, you know, things. Uh, I remember concepts and- Yeah ... you know, think, you know, creatively, but, you know, when it comes to, like, rote memorization, like-

Jordan: Right ...

Marcus: um, that is not my skillset. So school was not, um, was not my thing. But I, the reason why I bring that up is because, you know, we've found over the years that, I mean, you obviously have extended schooling.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Marcus: Right? But a lot of people don't even go to college and have successful businesses, and, you know, it's just, there's no real rhyme or reason. It's more about the grit and the person's ability to, like, overcome obstacles and stay, you know, positive in, in, in face of all the things that you're gonna, you know, have come up against you when you own a business.

Yeah. If that makes

Jordan: sense. Well, I think, I think most successful people have, you know, some aspect of creativity, imagination, and, and work ethic, you know, a- and just perseverance.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: And, and those can be applied to a bunch of different people. You know, I, I'm, I'm actually jealous of the people who know that, hey, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't wanna go to college, or I don't need to go to graduate school.

This is what I wanna do.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: And they did it, you know, 10 years. They got started 10 years before I did. Yeah.

Marcus: Uh,

Jordan: and so, um-

Marcus: And hundreds of thousands of dollars in less, you know, schooling.

Jordan: Yeah. That's right. Ooh. Yeah. Thank you. Uh- Yeah, thanks for

Marcus: that reminder, Marcus ... right.

Jordan: Yeah. Well, there's a lot of people, uh, kind of like myself that, that were in law school still trying to find their way, you know?

Uh, we talked about it last time. Mm-hmm. But, but, uh, you know, I was a pre-med student- Yeah ... you know, for three years. I was a biology major, and I wanted to be a doctor. And I, and I, and I shadowed, you know, doctors and surgeons and, and, uh, it was a great opportunity. I, I wanted to be a doctor, but I realized I did not want to go to school that long.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Uh, and I had, I had a, an aunt that was in hospital administration, and she was telling me about all the, the negatives with insurance and how that had changed. Well, you know, she came from a different era of, of medical, you know, the medical field and, um, and so I said I don't... So what I was... So at that point, I was three years in.

My parents said, "You get four years." And, uh, you know, luckily I had a history minor. I just love history, so I was- Yeah ... studying that for fun and I had a minor. I was able to flip that to a major, add a, add another major in sociology. But even with that, what, what was I gonna do with a history and sociology major?

Um, and so It's

Marcus: almost as good as an English major.

Jordan: Right. Yeah, exactly.

Marcus: You know?

Jordan: So let's go to law school. Yeah. You know? Um, everybody... They always said, "You can do anything with a law degree." And so I went there and, um, and so yeah, that's, that's how I got there, but-

Marcus: I was told that if I got an English degree that they would know that I could read and write, and that was a pretty good prerequisite for getting a job

Jordan: Well, the, the ability to write, I mean, is just paramount.

I mean- Yeah ... you know, most of 'em. I mean, even with AI and stuff now, I mean, the ability to write and really write well is, is just an amazing skill.

Marcus: Well, and even with AI, knowing what is good writing- Right.

Jordan: Exactly ...

Marcus: and what isn't-

Jordan: Yeah, no, just 'cause you- 'Cause you can tell the AI ... can use AI. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Um, and you know, I thought I was a good writer. You talked about I made good grades and all this going up through school, until I got out of, of law school and had some really good mentors, you know, older attorneys, experienced let's say.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: And, um, I realized I was not that, as good as I thought. And then, you know, legal writing is a little bit different but it, and it's, it's gotta be much more persuasive.

You gotta know your audience and- Yeah ... um, and it is a huge skill. And I, I mean, I, I can think back, you talk about, I can think back to that, um, that seventh grade English teacher, um, that gave me that subjective grade that we- The B ... that we negotiated, right? Oh, my gosh. But I can remember all the- Yeah

nitpicky things that she taught me about- Yeah ... English and grammar and, and, you know, punctuation and all that, and it's just huge. Yeah. It's just huge. Yeah.

Marcus: Um, I made the mistake of telling AI to use Strunk and White's, uh... You know? Yeah. Uh, for those of you that don't know, uh, Strunk and White is a little booklet and it's probably only, if it's 100 pages, it's not 100 pages, you know?

But um, it's got all of the editorial, uh, rules- Mm-hmm ... for grammar. Um, and so you're talking about, you know, dangling participles and, you know, the, uh, Oxford commas and- Yeah ... you know, things like that that, you know, most people don't ever pay attention to 'cause we live in a society now where punct- punctuation doesn't really make a difference.

Jordan: Oh, yeah.

Marcus: And so, but you know, back in the day, learning all that stuff, I mean, you wanna talk about a headache. So- Huge ... but anyway, we got- Yeah ... we got this.

Jordan: We got whole different rules for, for legal writing, and they got this thing called Bluebooking. It's how you cite, properly cite to cases and things like that.

And then when you're in law school, you, you try to get on, you probably heard of like Law Review- Yeah ... or these other journals, right? And you, you've gotta have certain grades or like, you know, s- li- wr- writing skills to get on these things.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: And firms look for those, but that has its own language, too.

And when you s- if you've done that, like, like in your, if when you see someone else's work and it's, it doesn't meet- Yeah ... up to code, it influences you. Like it in- you know, and we're trying to influence others and we don't- Yeah. We don't, you know, not really looking for that. Yeah. Yeah, so.

Marcus: No, that's cool.

Well, um, what was your first job, and were there any lessons from it?

Jordan: Uh, my first jobs, um, I, I think I started around, you know, 10, 11, 12. I was shining shoes, uh, taking care of neighbors' pets, babysitting, washing cars. Uh, and then I got into, to yard work and, um, so I was, you know, by high school I was doing, you know, 15, 20 yards, um, you know, a week or- Wow

every other week. And, um, yeah, it was- Raking

Marcus: in the

Jordan: cash ... most money. Literally raking in the cash, right?

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Uh, yeah, I mean, hard work, um, obviously. Um, you know, uh, having to, to, um, use your own capital to start a business, to expand a business. Kinda got into- ... like a little bit of a, you know, independent contractors or employees because I got my sister in, you know, to help me out.

Nice. Uh, or if I was going out of town I had to, you know, make sure I had, you know, one of my buddies that, you know, that could take over the cases, yeah. Saving, you know, I learned a lot about that. My parents made me put half of everything that I made, you know, away.

Marcus: Good for them.

Jordan: Um, yeah, no, so I learned a lot about that.

Uh, but, um, that was, that, those were my first jobs.

Marcus: Nice.

Jordan: Yeah.

Marcus: All your standard, um, uh, jobs that a young lad should have, right?

Jordan: I think so, yeah. So- Hopefully they still exist.

Marcus: Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, how do you, how do you apply that as a ch- as a parent? Do you think that you'll want your kids to... And this is, you know, not a question that I normally ask, but it's just something-

that's on my mind 'cause I got, you know, a bunch of kids, you know, m- of my own. But do you think that you'll want your kids to get jobs early on or?

Jordan: I mean, absolutely. I mean, even if they... I mean, I've watched other f- other friends, you know, that are, um, that have older kids than me. I think it's good, uh, good idea to make sure that they have some, like, different types of jobs.

They need, they need, even if they don't like it, they learn the value of a dollar, they learn the value of their time. Yeah. Right? That, that's what I really learned out about- You

Marcus: also learn what you don't wanna do ...

Jordan: which is just as valuable, right? Like, you know, I, I, my dad, if he, he would ask us all the time, "What are, what do you wanna do when you grow up?"

And, uh, if we came up with any ideas, he'd say, "Well, you need to go see what those people do on a daily basis and see if that's really what you wanna do." You know, uh, being a lawyer is not always what it looks like on Suits. You know? Mm-hmm. Being a doctor is not always what it looked like on

Marcus: ER,

Jordan: which was-

which was big, big back then. Yeah. You know? And so how can you really know if that's what you wanna do? You gotta go see those people. But eliminating options because, "Oh, that's not what I wanna do," that's just as valuable. Yeah. Actually, I... So yeah, I'm really thankful for that.

Marcus: I, my very, my, uh, my very first job was at a bagel bakery.

And, um- You know, I stayed in the bakery space until I went, uh, away to college and I got a job at Lowe's. And the only reason why, why I bring that up is because, uh, ba- and Bagel Bakery and bakeries weren't the greatest jobs, but it taught me a lot. But the other thing, too, and I remember having this conversation with somebody very early on, it was, like, working for different people also taught me the management styles that I wanted and that I didn't want to incorporate in my own, you know, rise- Yeah

if you will, into, you know, management.

Jordan: Or try to.

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, yeah, absolutely. 'Cause, you know, I mean, like, you work some, for some real butt holes when you- Yeah ... when you're coming up, so.

Jordan: It also gives you perception. I mean, I've had people that I, you know, I thought, "Oh, man, I can't... I'll never be like that."

But to be able to see it from their perspective and- And why they- ... understand what they're dealing with. Yeah. Right? So, like, we may never be employees again, but if we were, we would definitely have a better perspective of what, you know, our owners, managers, you know, are dealing with. Yeah. You know? And that's, that's, that's really something different.

Marcus: Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, that's awesome. So tell us how you started your business.

Jordan: Okay, great. Uh, let's see. I... So I got out of law school. I came down to Mobile. For whatever reason, the Mobile law firms, you know, liked, liked me. Um, I wanted to go somewhere, a place and a firm where I knew I could get experience right off.

Um, and when I went into law school, the economy was booming. We were talking about the economy. I thought I would get in, uh, I wanted to get out, maybe do some transactional work. I had kinda decided that, um, I, you know, I played sports all through college, and the competitive nature in me, I was like, I, I, I, "Maybe I've had enough, you know, I'm just gonna get out and do some business."

When I got into law school, I realized real fast that the transactional is interesting, but the litigation, you know, that, it kind of, I got the bug and- Tickled

Marcus: your feather.

Jordan: Yeah. Yes. And so... But I'd always been told that I was too introverted, too shy to, to be a lawyer, which I think was part of what made me go to law school and, you know, show my, my badness.

I said, "I, I can, I can, you know, I can do this." But when I was in law school, I realized, um, I wasn't so shy if I knew what I was talking about. Mm. And so, uh, you have to take a, uh, a moot court class in law school and, um, and I did really well, you know, in that. And I said, "Well, I'm gonna give this a shot." So I came down here.

I wanted to do litigation. You know, I wanted, I wanted to be a litigator and, um, I did. I got a lot of experience and, um- Uh, w- the first firm was, at the time, the oldest law firm in Alabama, and it got swallowed up by a big New Orleans firm. So I stayed there a little while, and then I went to another firm where I, you know, practiced for another 10 years and was a partner.

Um, about five years ago now, I started, uh, my own firm called Outside Chief Legal.

Marcus: Nice.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Marcus: Yeah. And I mentioned this in the previous recording, which we keep referring back to. Hopefully we'll stop soon. But, um, that I was quite surprised, like, you know, you have some very heavy hitters working with you, for you, however you wanna put it now.

And, you know, your organization has grown, you know, quite a bit, so, uh, you know, hats off 'cause I know that that space isn't easy. You know, I mean, obviously it's not running a restaurant, but, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's not an easy space, and so, you know, you've grown that, you know, quite a bit, so congratulations.

Jordan: No, I really appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, it's been a lot of hard work, you know, from a lot of different people. Yeah. So, uh, hopefully that is, um, evidence of, you know, how we're doing things and how we're, are doing things differently, you know, is, is of interest and a benefit to, to people.

Marcus: Is there anything that you think that you've done differently that maybe has attributed to that success?

Jordan: Mm.

Marcus: That was not a question I asked him before.

Jordan: Yes. Uh- I don't, I-

Marcus: You can tell by the little-

Jordan: So I don't have a prepared answer. Yeah. I mean, I, um ...

Marcus: And if you don't, we-

Jordan: Well, I think it's the mentality of the way- Yeah ... we approach legal services and, and being people's lawyer and counselors, right? Right. So I started as a, a pure litigator.

I did a lot of insurance litigation, business litigation, commercial litigation. And through that, I mean, I, I learned a lot of litigation skills. I loved, I loved all that. But eventually, I always was asking questions about, like, how did, how did the insured, how did the business owner get in this situation, right?

How could we prevent ... How could we have prevented this? How could we have improved their position if it couldn't have been prevented, right? The insurance companies, for, for, for all you can say about them, I mean, they, they ... You pay a premium, you get a policy and coverage, and, and they're, they're addressing this one issue.

Yeah. Right? And that's their job and they, and they, they're doing it. But for that business owner, the world doesn't stop with just that issue, that lawsuit. And so I became more interested in that, in the, in the business side of things, not only of law, but, like, the actual client's business. Mm-hmm. And so over time, it started to become their counselor, you know, their general counsel.

Yeah. Right? And looking at their business as a whole. And, and that's the mentality that I took into, uh, that role and that mentality that I took into Outside Chief Legal. So we have attorneys that are experts in a number of different fields, litigation, corporate, you know, M&A, real estate, uh, estate planning, business succession planning, right?

But we are all looking at it from, you know, okay, Marcus is our client. You know, this is his business. A- and we're looking at it from your perspective, as opposed to the traditional model was a break-fix model. You know, something went wrong in Marcus' or his business' life, it rose to the level that he wanted to call a lawyer, and we're gonna try and fix it, right?

Mm-hmm. We are really trying to take that- that's, that's a reactive, you know, model. We're trying to move it to the proactive model.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Yeah.

Marcus: No, that's really smart, 'cause I think a lot of people find themselves in business. It's the, um, E-Myth, you know, thing where, and if you haven't read the book, basically the premise is, you know, if you're a good baker and you start a business, well now, not only are you a good baker, but you also have to be a good accountant, a good bookkeeper, a good, you know, manager, a good, you know, all the things.

And so, um, you know, it's this idea that you, you keep rising, but you may not have every angle. Right. And I think being a lawyer, you, uh, you've seen and been exposed to quite a bit that would, you know, be a valuable asset to somebody that didn't ne- may- maybe have that experience. Yeah.

Jordan: Well, and you talked about E-Myth, you know, so we- I always talk about m- you know, man or woman of many hats, right?

Mm-hmm. You start a business, you're wearing all the hats. All the hats. You know, you're the CMO, COO, CFO, you know, and even your own CLO, the, your legal officer, right? Mm-hmm. And as you grow or you want to grow, you've got to be able to handle, hand those hats off to people, whether they're internal or external.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Usually the ones that you start with are the CFO, the COO, you know, CMO, and all this kind of stuff. The people usu- people usually h- hand off or don't think about the legal, because it's always seen as an expense, not an asset. Yeah. Now, we're trying to change that, but also what OCL is, is providing is you don't ever, you may not ever have to bring it in-house, right?

You, we're fractional, we're outside. You don't have to pay that heavy overhead. And so you can use us, you know, as, as needed or hopefully be proactive in, in, in, in matters. Yeah. But you're right. I mean, all of those different hats, at some level they've learned from the other hats, right? We, we learn from CFOs, COOs, CEOs, and all that kind of stuff, and we like to br- ba- pr- bring that knowledge and experience to our clients and their businesses.

That's what we say a lot, like, we, we, we aim to protect and promote. Yeah. Like, so a lot of lawyers, they, y- I mean, or, or their clients, right? You know, they're there to protect me. We can do that. Yeah. You know, that's fine. How can I, how can I improve your

Marcus: business? Yeah. How can I prevent you from getting into the trouble in the first place?

Jordan: Well, prevention is right, but also how can I promote your business? Yeah. Right? So we, we'll, we'll handle, we'll s- we'll settle whatever fires it is. We'll get you fixed up, we'll, we'll clean house, we'll get your files in order, all this kind of stuff. All right. What are your goals? Where do you wanna take this business?

All right. How can we help you? Yeah. Right? Then that's not just putting out fires. Like, is it creating synergies? You know, like, uh, "Hey, yeah, I'd really like to do this, but I don't know this or this and I don't know this person." Right. Well, guess what? We do. We do. Yeah. We're working with hundreds- Yeah ... of businesses, and they're looking for someone like you, too.

Like, so I love that, the synergy part and helping grow businesses, I love.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Um, I- we can still do the other stuff, and you gotta start there. Um, but it, I think it's a lot of educating the market, which you're helping me do now. Is that that's not all you can use legal for.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Right? Um, and, and as I, as we've kinda grown into this role, um, I, I saw that.

You know, half the time clients would call me, I would realize, uh, this really isn't a legal question. You know, we've just become a team and you're, you're spitballing or, "Hey, what do you think about this?" You're

Marcus: a sanity check.

Jordan: Yes. I mean, but I mean, uh, there is not a, an issue or a decision that a business owner, um, has to make that doesn't involve a legal issue.

Yeah. Like I always ch- I always ch- I challenge anybody- Right ... come up with one- Yeah ... that doesn't involve a legal issue and you can't. Right. Right? But that may not be the biggest, you know, point, uh, or, or factor in making the decision. You know, it may be business and, and we try to take it beyond that, you know, you know, just telling, "Yes, this is what the law says.

You can or can't do that," you know? No. All right. Let's, let's help the client with the actual business decision.

Marcus: Yeah. Move forward with it.

Jordan: Yeah,

Marcus: yeah. No, I, I think it's smart. You know, like, uh, you know, an accountant, a lawyer, and a banker are the top three people that you need to meet when you start, you know, a business.

Jordan: Right.

Marcus: And so having somebody like you guys on, on tap, if you will- Mm-hmm ... I think is a really smart idea. So, um, what's something that you wish someone had told you before you started, something that you learned the hard way?

Jordan: Oh, man.

Marcus: It's not easy sitting here in the hot seat

Jordan: I mean, there's just like, there's so many things, uh, and re- regardless of whether or not I admitted it at the time, I probably knew they were right. Um, you know, um I think probably most business owners would, would say the same thing as, like, what I will come up with to the answer to this question-

'cause there's probably a bunch of them. But I probably would've, in hindsight, I would've started faster, I would've done it sooner. You know, I would've taken more chances, I would've taken bigger risks. Yeah. Um, yeah, because w- I mean, uh, you know, I had, I had discussions with people before I, you know, started OCL.

I mean, I had a great job at a freaking amazing firm, uh, making great money, and I was about to step out and, you know, leave all, all of that. And, um, one of my, um, my friends, my clients, uh, which was great 'cause, you know, I know you got a lot of clients- ... that are also friends. You know? Yeah. That's awesome.

They were also my mentors, right? These are successful business owners, and now, now they're, they're... I've always helped them with their business. Now they're, they're potentially helping me with mine, right? Yeah. And he just asked me a question. He was like, "Well, what, what is... Is this gonna be a fatal risk?"

And I said, "Well, what," you know, "what is that?" And they're like, "Well, what's the worst thing that's gonna happen if you leave your job?" You know, "How long would it take you to find another job? Are you gonna be able to put food on the table?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'm pretty sure." You know? Yeah. "I, I, it wouldn't take..."

And he's like, "Well, that's not

Marcus: fatal."

Jordan: You know? Yeah. And so I use that example with my clients all the time, uh, to, in evaluating risk, right? A lot of people, uh, we're never gonna be the, the no attorneys, right? We're not gonna, we're not gonna put the legal in front of the practical. Right. You know? So, like, "All right, tell me what, what are we dealing with?"

And with a lot of our clients we already know, 'cause we, we deal with them all the time. Yeah. And it's our job to make sure we know what's going on with them. Um, but, but yeah, I probably would've done it faster.

Marcus: Yeah. I 100% agree, 'cause, you know, once you get into business, it's just, um... I don't know. It just moves at a different speed.

Mm-hmm. So, um, is there a person, book, or a resource that's changed the way you think about business?

Jordan: Hmm. I, I recently read Ownership Thinking. Have you, have you read that? Mm-mm. Um, so it's a way, or the idea behind it is, um, getting your whole team to kinda buy in more with what you're doing and to feel like they, uh, are involved, invested, vested, uh, or owners.

Yeah. Um, and, uh, so I got a lot out of that. I mean, I, you know, have a, I had a lot of books, but, um, but that was the most recent one. And then, um, uh, something I think is timely, I, I just read, um, it's called Main Street Millionaire. Um, I never remember authors' names, but- That's fine ... her name's, like, Cody, Cody Sanchez or something like that.

Yeah She's talking about, um, how to buy businesses, um, especially in this kind of, you know, what they're calling the silver tsunami with, um, you know, a lot of- Baby boomers retiring ... baby boomers retiring. Yeah. Yeah. And they don't really have a succession plan, and so there's a lot of opportunity out there.

You know, we were talking about the c- there's, there's a lot of opportunity out there for, you know, younger generations to take over some really great and profitable, you know, businesses, mom and pops, and, and 'cause th- those companies don't have succession plans.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Um, uh, you know, their kids or whatever don't wanna

Marcus: do it.

They've gotta pull that cash out

Jordan: and- Yeah, that's their retirement ... you know. Yeah. Yeah. So we're doing a lot of that on our side, you know, on the M&A side, you know, helping people get their businesses ready to sell, you know, going through with the transactions. Um, but, but, uh, she sets out, you know, how to do that from a buyer's perspective, so it's pretty good.

I like that one.

Marcus: And that was M- Main... Say that again.

Jordan: Main Street Millionaire.

Marcus: I'm gonna have to p- pick that up 'cause I've, I've been, um, I've been, you know, looking at that. You know, I, w- we, you know, I advise a number of people too, and, uh, even, you know, ki- my kids. You know, it's like, what should they be looking at doing, you know, in the future and stuff?

And, um, you know, one of the ideas is, you know, buying, you know, like a plumbing business or an HVAC business or an electrical business or- Mm-hmm ... you know, something along those lines. But, um, but I- There

Jordan: must be something behind it because- Oh,

Marcus: there's something behind it ... a bunch of

Jordan: PE companies are buying them up left and right.

Really? So they must be, uh, profitable.

Marcus: Yeah. That's interesting. So, um, okay, how do you like to unwind?

Jordan: Uh,

Marcus: you have a place on the river, so- I do

Jordan: have a place

Marcus: on the river ... you go out and sip some wine on the back porch or something like that

Jordan: every now and then? I don't, I don't. Um, I used to. I, uh, no, no wine for me anymore, but, um, I don't know.

I, I mean, we got a three and a half year old, so unwinding- Yeah. ... is a little bit different these days. Yeah.

Marcus: You go to work to unwind

Jordan: Yeah.

Marcus: Is what you're saying.

Jordan: Um, he's getting older, and he's getting, s- getting so much fun. Yeah. You know? So I, I really love that. Yeah. Um, uh, what's interesting, unwinding for me is, is, is kind of like still working, but maybe different work, you know?

I like, I love working on the business. I love working on other people's businesses or just, you know, going home and getting in the yard or doing something, right? A lot of, I'm helping build businesses, but it's not always tangible. And so, like, I know you like to work with wood.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: I, you know, working in the yard or something, I can see it, and, you know, that, that, I love that.

There's something of, something to that.

Marcus: I, a- and I don't do this anymore 'cause we have, uh, somebody that takes care of our, our yard, but one of the most powerful times of my week back, uh, when I lived, uh, in a different house was mowing the grass.

Jordan: Mm-hmm. '

Marcus: Cause there was, like, nothing... I mean, you're just behind a mower just walking, you know, and it's like you're th- unpacking all the things in your head that, you know, you've been dealing with-

and coming up with, like, "Oh, well, what if I approached it from this side?" Yeah. Or, "What if, what about this other side?" And, "Well, I need to have this conversation. How is that gonna go?" You know, blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, just really valued that time. So woodworking kind of takes that over for me, but at the same time, you kind of have to pay attention 'cause there's these spinny things that have sharp blades on them- Yeah

that'll cut your hand off if you don't pay attention. You,

Jordan: we were talking about, yeah, like my landscape or yard days, you know, when you do mulching, so you're just, like, behind a mower. Yeah. 'Cause I couldn't afford a riding mower back then, and, uh, just behind it, you know, for hours on end. I remember, like, one of the first things I bought with- when I had any money was a, was a, remember those yellow Walkmans?

Walkmans. Yeah. Because I had to get out of my head. Yes. You know? Like, hours and hours. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, "Man, I, I'm gonna drive myself crazy."

Marcus: So yeah, we're, we're similar in that respect.

Jordan: Yeah. My mind goes like- But music is big, um- Yeah ... you know, big, uh, winding down. I mean, I'm just huge music. Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah,

Jordan: love it.

Marcus: I've recently, uh, I- I've recently thought, and I haven't come to any conclusions, but I have, you know, like I can... How do I, uh, paint this? I used to listen to music all the time, and now all, most of the stuff that I listen to is voice. It's- Podcasts ... podcasts and things like that. Yeah, same. And so I'm wondering if that ability to disconnect and kind of, like, take it down is, uh, you know, how- is lost because I'm listening to stuff that still is either stressful because it's about the economy and the world events and stuff like that, or stressful because it's about business and I'm thinking about things and instead of just some random song from, you know, the '90s where I'm listening, y- you know, and just singing along or, you know, something like that, but-

Jordan: Oh, yeah, the '90s.

Yeah. No, I, yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot lately, too, 'cause I'm the same way. Yeah. Like, uh, I don't... Used to listen to c- certain channels or, or music, you know, while in the car and stuff like... And now it's just straight podcast, business development- Yeah ... you know, world news, this kind of stuff. At

Marcus: some point in time, though, y- I feel like I just have to unplug.

You

Jordan: have to find... But I, you're gonna have, I mean, you're gonna have to be, you know, you know, purposeful about it.

Marcus: Yeah. For sure. Well, that leads into our rapid fire questions.

Jordan: All right.

Marcus: Ready?

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Marcus: Favorite type of music?

Jordan: Um, alternative, you know, rock from the '90s era. Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: Pearl Jam is my favorite band, so.

I was just,

Marcus: uh, and I know this is supposed to be rapid fire, but this is so funny. Chris, he was, we were riding along and somehow Live came on the- Yeah ... stereo. Oh, yeah. And I hadn't heard them in so long, and it sent me down this rabbit trail of, like, listening to all the, you know, Pearl Jam- ... Soundgarden, you know- Yeah

Live. Nirvana. Yeah. Uh, Nirvana. You know, all those guys. It was such a good, uh, period of time for music, so. It

Jordan: was awesome.

Marcus: What's your favorite type of food?

Jordan: Uh, Mexican. Yeah. Latino, Spanish. Yeah.

Marcus: Favorite restaurant in Lower Alabama?

Jordan: Oh, boy. You... Uh. Yeah. I, uh, you know, I love, um, Chuck's, NoJa, Mo's. Um, those are kind of three different, uh-

Marcus: Mo's Barbecue.

Jordan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Mo's Barbecue. Yeah, yeah.

Marcus: Gotta be specific around here 'cause we got the Southwest thing going, too, but-

Jordan: Yeah. No, no ...

Marcus: the Mo's Barbecue.

Jordan: Locals know what I'm talking about.

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Um, favorite city outside of Mobile?

Jordan: Uh, on the US, um, Chicago's always been my favorite. Um, uh, outside, um, you know, uh, I've really liked the Spanish culture, so I really love that. But, um, you know, um, Paris has always been a lot of fun for my wife and I too,

Marcus: so.

Jordan: Yeah,

Marcus: that's cool. Yeah. I've nev- never been to Paris, but-

Jordan: Oh, you gotta go,

Marcus: yeah ... one, one of these days.

Jordan: You're gonna do it. Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah,

Jordan: you gotta go.

Marcus: For sure. Portugal's my bucket list item.

Jordan: Oh, yeah. Well, that's on my bucket list for sure, yeah.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: There's a lot of great things.

Marcus: Yeah. Um, city you want to travel to but have yet to visit?

Jordan: Oh, yeah. So we just... Yeah, so, uh, Portugal. Portugal. Also southern Spain, so we did the whole northern Spain and, um, you know, um, uh, Pamplona, Bar- you know, in that area.

My dad was stationed in southern Spain when he was in the Navy, and I've just heard it all about it, and so I, I really wanna go down there.

Marcus: Yeah, that's cool. What comes to mind when I say guilty pleasure?

Jordan: Uh, sweets.

Marcus: Anything you, anything you reach for more than oth- uh, others? Which, which-

Jordan: No, that's the problem.

I just reach for

Marcus: anything. Yes.

Jordan: Uh-

Marcus: Yeah. Um, morning person or night owl?

Jordan: Uh, I've become a morning person, yeah, in the last, uh, five, six years, for sure.

Marcus: And favorite movie or TV show?

Jordan: Uh, my favorite movies, I always have like a trifecta. Um, Dances With Wolves, always loved Rudy. I've, uh, just like, yeah, motivational, you know, corny kinda deal.

Yeah But, um-

Marcus: You still cry at the end of Rudy?

Jordan: Yeah, I mean, or get goosebumps. You know, like how, you know, how can I- Yeah ... um, and, well, I, I just remember my, um, my sister, um, went to West Point and, you know, she gets all these opportunities to meet all these famous people, and she met Rudy Ruettiger-

Marcus: Oh, wow

Jordan: and got a football signed for me. Oh, cool. So that was one of the cool things she's gotten for me. Nice. And so that's really cool. Yeah, yeah.

Marcus: No, that's really cool.

Jordan: Th- other people will say he was offsides, you know. Yeah. But in any case, yeah, 'cause I was a- Yeah ... I was a walk-on, too, and, um, so, um, you know, we're talking about, you know, work ethic and perseverance, like, you know, the, the walk-on story has always been really cool.

Marcus: Yeah, to be able to overcome the fact that you weren't picked.

Jordan: Yeah, yeah.

Marcus: You know? I

Jordan: mean, I still have the list of, you know, all of the players, um, you know, and I... There was like five or six guys that I had to beat out, you know, that were already on the team, that I had to beat out to get on the spot. And, um, and, um, and, uh, just being in that role, you know, it's- Yeah

it's a lot, yeah.

Marcus: No, that's cool. Um, what are you most thankful for?

Jordan: Uh, health, family, family's health, um, the, and the people that, uh, you know, the, the friends and the, and the, and, and my team at OCL. Yeah.

Marcus: No, that's awesome. They are, I'm sure, kind of family by now. Um, and tell people where they can find out more information.

Jordan: Yeah. Um, Outside Chief Legal. We're on all the socials. Um, want people to check us out on there and, um, and, and, um, and check out what we call our partner plans, and that is, um, something new that we're providing the market so that people don't just see us, see us, and I say lawyers, you know, as an expense- Mm-hmm

and, and an break-fix. It, um, it allows them to budget, you know, and, uh, so we can start getting them cleaned up, and we start working on building their business, so.

Marcus: It's interesting because most people don't ever, when they start a business, they don't budget for things like legal or like, you know, marketing or, you know, whatever.

And the truth is that there's always gonna be something for somebody with that skill set to work on in the business. Mm-hmm. You know, like, um, you know, just, uh, got hired on as, uh, kind of a, um- A retainer engagement for a client out of Indianapolis. And, um, you know, I'm sure at first they were kind of like, "Well, you know, we just need, you know, this."

And I'm like, "Well, to do that, then this other thing has to be changed, and this o- uh, th- this stuff has to be changed," and blah, blah, blah. And so it's just, you know, like I'm going through and rewriting all the content on their website. I'm going through and doing, you know, all kinds of stuff. And so it's just a matter of having the ability to set aside some money for somebody with a skill set, you know, to apply themselves.

But also they brought

Jordan: in a partner,

Marcus: right? Yeah.

Jordan: You're a part- You're their partner now.

Marcus: Yeah.

Jordan: And if, if they had just tried to go and do that piecemeal- Right ... right, they had done something, well, they're gonna go back and, and have to pay to do the stuff that you told them, you know-

Marcus: Yeah ...

Jordan: that you taught them that they needed to do first, right?

Yeah. And, yeah, they don't have all the, you know, the, the world budget to, to give all this kind of stuff, but you could tell them what they need at this stage.

Marcus: Right.

Jordan: And that's, that's the way we've developed our partner plans in that it's, it's based on where you're at in your business. Mm-hmm. Right? So we're not gonna come in and say, "Yeah, we need all this money to get you started."

No, 'cause you don't, you don't need all this right now. Right. We're gonna help you get it set up, protect, and promote. So we're gonna protect you what you have now and set you up to protect what you're about to build. And then our job, you know, at each stage is different. You know, at the beginning, "We're gonna help you, we need to generate revenue."

Yeah. "We're gonna help you generate revenue and help you keep the what you're gonna get." You move to the next stage, you know, employees, you know. Then we, we represent them from start-up to exit. Yeah. So at, throughout the whole stage, you know, we can help you. And you can- No, that's really awesome ... they can get information on that, yeah, from our website, so.

Marcus: No, that's really cool. Um, you know, I was just, I would back that up. I mean, I think there's gonna be something that a lawyer is needed for, throughout, so. Well, I wanna thank you again for coming on the podcast. To wrap up, any final thoughts or comments you'd like to share?

Jordan: No, man, I, I really appreciate the opportunity-

Marcus: the second time. Well, I've been sitting over here staring at the little- Yeah, yeah. We're good. Yeah ... it's, it's working. So, but, um, yeah. No, I really do, I appreciate your time. So, um, well, Jordan, appreciate your willingness to sit with me and share your journey as a business owner and entrepreneur. It's been great talking with you, man.

Jordan: Yeah. Thanks, Marcus.

Marcus: Absolutely.